Curse

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

Eet, grind means different things to different people. I -never- feel like I'm grinding when I'm leveling, some feel exactly the opposite (you seem to be one that feels leveling is grinding, for instance, where Mimi doesn't seem to). Mimi seems to me to be defining 'grinding' as engaging in non-productive repetitive activity in PvE once you hit level 20, not the leveling -to- level 20. So she's not contradicting herself, there's just a difference involved in what 'grind' means.

You are correct. I'd answer it myself, but the ignore feature of the forums works as advertised.

Yet another example of people making false assumptions of what I'm saying.

There is no "grind" in GW involving leveling up to 20 - in fact, it's laughably easy to do...as I repeatedly stated. I can do it in a couple of days, without using runners. Not bragging, just reinforcing my point.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeko Nakano

Keep those wise words coming, Lov.

Comparing a single player RPG game to a MMORPG game is Apples and Oranges. Business models are completely different, game design is completely different, target audience is completely different, and the sale results are completely different.

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

What I meant was that each Chapter would have its own level range (Chapter 1 would be 1 to 20, Chapter 2 would be 20 to 40, etc.) and each Chapter would be self-contained (if you take your character to Chapter 2 he/she can't go back to Chapter 1 areas). This gives you a level cap -and- level progression both, any given player can stop at whatever Chapter they feel is the best level cap for them. Don't want to go past 20? Then you can stay in Chapter 1 and never have to worry about facing anyone with gear/skills from some more advanced chapter.

.

here is the direct OFFICIAL scotch to that idea.

we were told officially in posts that we could buy any ones in the series including for example 1,3,5,etc and still have common areas for all chapters.

from the official site not simply my opinion.

Quote:

Am I required to buy the new chapters in order to continue to play Guild Wars?

No. Every purchase you make in the continuation of the Guild Wars saga will be your choice. If you purchase new chapters, you will gain access to new regions of the world, new skills and abilities, new items, new professions, and much more. However, if you choose not to purchase a chapter, you will still be able to play the chapters of Guild Wars that you own, and you will have common areas in which you will be able to play with and against your friends who have purchased the other chapter(s).

AND MIMI?

THIS IS NOT AN MMORPG

Maegana · Nov 30, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

anyone have any idea when Ch. 2 is coming out?

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

here is the direct OFFICIAL scotch to that idea.

we were told officially in posts that we could buy any ones in the series including for example 1,3,5,etc and still have common areas for all chapters.

from the official site not simply my opinion.

AND MIMI?

THIS IS NOT AN MMORPG

According to their (Anet's) website it is.

Akathrielah · Nov 30, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I *am* stating I hope ANet offers a compelling reason to buy chapter two, beyond just turning it into yet more areas to grind and farm from - especially since due to balance and level cap, the items are nothing more than cosmetic differences instead of "better". What is "better"? Tough to say, since ANet's design paradigm won't allow "better".

Once you reach level 20, is simply skill capping the only reason to keep playing, once you've finished the game? Is that it? For players that have finished the game, and capped the skills - what else is there to do? Nothing except grind, which is what a vast majority of people are doing. I WANT ANet to offer something better than that, since apparently there isn't anything more - especially since not everyone gives a rat's behind about PVP.

And yes, I've spent more time than I care to admit playing PVP, in GvG, CA, and Tombs. People have made assumptions about THAT too. I choose not to persue it as much as I used to simply because I hate the environment. Not the gameplay, but the players. The FOTW crap. The egos and elitism, and how it can turn friends into enemies simply because of greed and egos.

Mmmm'kay?

I do remember Anet releasing a statement that they aren't going to use the Misson system they were using in this current game. Which, if replaced by something more dynamic and fun, would be a welcome breath of fresh air.

As for Anet's paradigm enclosing themselves into a box. It sure can allow for better things, better quests for starters, new gameplay modes, etc. In other words all of the things in the other games that you wanted to do but had to grind to get to them first. As Loviatar so subtly =p pointed out, having bigger numbers doesn't mean anything because the balance of power never changes.
And if you decide to upset the balance of power by introducing gear that is siginificantly stronger than the usual, that is when the game quickly becomes boring, when everything can be accomplished in two swings of an uber blade.

As for the ego and elitsm, you find that anywhere, I've found plenty of friendly players in both tombs and in guilds. Its just like PvE however; all it takes is one jackoff to ruin your day.

Zaklex · Nov 30, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maegana

anyone have any idea when Ch. 2 is coming out?

1st HALF of 2006, so anytime between January and end of June, though I wouldn't look for it anytime soon.

Severra Timarre · Nov 30, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Well, just started reading this thread, and I just have to add my own thoughts on this.

Grinding for money is not something the casual player does. According to information released by Anet, only 50% of the population has over 10k, with only 75% having over 20k. 10k is attainable by doing the missions through, doing some quests, buying some armor and decent weapons, and having acceptable luck on drops, in other words, a casual gamers experience.

Grinding for skills, I sincerely doubt it. Most casual gamers will play around with the skills they pick up via quests, look at the skills a skill trainer has to offer, and just slap together a build. I didnt get any elite skills for a loong time after ascending, I've never had a problem with skill points.
So for the casual gamer, who spends less/equal time on the game compared to me, no grinding for skills.

Obviously, theres no grinding for experience at all, since level 20 is so easily attainable, and refund points dont require xp anymore.

Grinding for 1337 weapons? Only if you're really desperate will you do this. I've never bothered, I've used dropped weapons, weapons a friend offers to trade me for, or a weapon type I want being advertised for dirt cheap in passing. This is, again, what the casual gamer will do, especially in GW, because max damage is EASY to aquire, and the difference between a 12% mod and a 15% mod is laughably small.

Armor Grind. This is one thing that I have done, but only because I focus on my characters appearance more than anything else about them. Even then, I never bothered spending that much time doing it, just doing it when none of my friends were online, etc.

Faction Grind. Acceptable for a PvP player, needed to unlock skills, mods, etc. that he doesnt want to bother getting through PvE. Casual players wont really bother, because they've unlocked enough things through casual play to get started in competition or team arenas.

Rank Grind. The one grind that a casual gamer is likely to do, but only because of elitism in the PvP community that forces you to get rank to play tombs in a good group.

So wheres the grind for a casual player? It doesnt exist in any substantial quantity.
So really mimi, your complaints about the game being all grind nowadays, dont really apply to anyone except the 1000hr+ gamer.

Anyways, for your concerns about chapter 2, the new stuff will be balanced, or mostly balanced, but they will be DIFFERENT.
Just because its balanced really doesnt mean that they have to be almost the same, theres room for dozens of things that havent been touched in the current game.
Try being able to target landscapes for AoE spells and teleportation skills, dual wielding( although I pray that they wont add this, it'd make IW a little too good.) knockbacks, as well as knockdown, stealth skills, weapons that damage energy instead of health, spells that make your opponents spells fire off at a random target.... Those are just things I thought up in a minute or two, and theres many ways you could balance them. Now think about having multiple months to come up with ideas like this, and you can maybe get excited about chapter 2.

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

According to their (Anet's) website it is.

EARTH CALLING MIMI
EARTH CALLING MIMI

HERE IS THE QUOTE FROM ANET SITE SHOWING YOU ARE WRONG OR DELUSIONAL

Is Guild Wars an MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game)?

Quote:

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience.

Quote:

Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences. Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment.

jesh · Nov 30, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself - but if you look at the state of the game AS IT IS RIGHT NOW - tell me it's not "grind". Tell me that the vast majority of players are not involved in some aspect of farming/grind. That the "story" became almost unimportant at this point. The only thing people care about is greed. So, grind grind grind.

It's not grind.

..

Okay, that was funny. I'm done lying for the day.

As much as other people love to argue with Mimi, she's right. Yes, there are the more casual players who haven't resorted to grinding, but there are also players who've made over 4 characters and beaten the game time and time again, me included. For us, it's like she said. There just isn't much left to do anymore, and I was never fond of bon-bons to being with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

In other words you no longer can act like a spoiled retarded 5 year old and be at the end game with raid loot, if some people cannot comprehend this, they should go play another game.

Runners make it possible. I've pretty much stopped running for people after I realized this, but in the end, I'm only one person. As more and more people ebay money and hire runners, the natural intelligence barriers in the game disolves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

OH MY GOD CHAPTER 2 IS ONLY ABOUT HAVING FUN.

NO MEANINGFUL CONTENT JUST FUN.........OH THE HUMANITY..

AND FUN WILL BE A PROBLEM FOR SOME PEOPLE.......WHAT ARE WE COMING TO ?

You're my hero. I for one could care less about level caps and power, I want to get on with the fashion show.

Even if skills aren't more powerful, they can still be different. Even if a new class isn't more powerful, it can still be different. Even armor can't be more powerful, it can still be different! Do you get the point people? What if they doubled the skill count for all the existing classes as well as the new ones? Would you be bored? Hell no, you'd be having a blast exploiting broken skills. And that's what GW is all about, isn't it?

One thought I had while reading this thread is this:
Since people like to adhere to the new fotm so much, why not take advantage of it?
Have a week where a certain skill does something extra. Have certain arenas that amplify certain skills. Open up a new area where something is especially effective.. do you see where I'm going with this?
If they made this kind of thing into an event, less people would b!tch and moan, and more people would have fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidden_agenda

Finally, while I know that many people on the forum don't care for the story, I am of the opinion that many people (well at least myself) WOULD be willing to spend money on buying a good story. Even if there aren't any additional levels to be had.

I would too. If there was nothing but a super compelling story, I'd gladly dish out the 50$ for it. And if it was a story with more than one ending, like Deus Ex, it might quickly become my new favorite game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorlin

1. They are way too obsessed with farmers and bots. Every single patch has some tweak designed to remove one or both of these, the trouble is it also negatively impacts everyone else who uses the same skill/spell/technique that is targetted. The amount of time they've spent coding on these two non-issues (and they are non-issues, the only people who freak out over either are those who've taken a 'moral' position on the issue) and the number of players they've alienated by such nerfing could have been spent implementing things players have been asking for nearly universally for months and making players happier. Since this fixation has gone on for months now I don't have much hope of it ending, clearly someone high in management has a bee in their bonnet about this issue and can't think of anything else.

This is your opinion. In my opinion, they were trying to make the pve game more like pvp - where you can't just send in a tank and set things on fire with minimal losses. The problem is that the game still isn't ENOUGH like pvp. Hence why so few can complete the thirsty river mission without paying someone 30k to solo it for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

People are supposedly miscontruing your words because you're constantly contradicting yourself. You've been advocating FOR a higher level cap in this thread and yet you said that you're not for grind.

I do agree that there's grind in GW. The PVE is tedious and repetitive and linear. But adding a higher level cap sure isnt going to fix that.

Learn to read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

I do remember Anet releasing a statement that they aren't going to use the Misson system they were using in this current game. Which, if replaced by something more dynamic and fun, would be a welcome breath of fresh air.

I can't tell you how much I would love that. I remember someone, forgot who, posting about the difference between MUDs and GW. The difference being social interaction.. that's one of the things that I like most about online games, and something that's sorely lacking from GW. Maybe they could do something like "less instanced" environments, where you're put out in a place with 30 random people or so? You wouldn't all spawn at the same point, but you'd could find each other and chat, help each other out..
I say this, because mostly what goes on is WTS/WTB/LFR crap, and no one wants to do things just for fun anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Severra Timarre

Armor Grind. This is one thing that I have done, but only because I focus on my characters appearance more than anything else about them. Even then, I never bothered spending that much time doing it, just doing it when none of my friends were online, etc.

I know I'm not the only that cares about how my characters look. I'd love to see something where you could change your existing armor to another set for a small amount of gold, that way you can find what works best for you, appearance-wise. And of course a dye-preview feature.

As far as the OPs post, which everyone seems to have forgotten, I suppose my biggest fear for Chapter 2 is lack of a compelling story, and no more social interaction than the current environment dicatates. Obviously there will be new classes, armor, weapons, etc, that I'm not worried about, that's all well and good.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 30, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

I think they can put multiple ending for Guild Wars but i guess the developer choose not to do it. But look at it from this point of view. (going to talk about a console game for a moment) Halo 2 and 1. How in the hell these two games got so popular. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon for Halo 1 and 2 and there isn't any multiple ending.

I do agree that story is a key factor for people that want to buy games. I mean look at me... i brought all three Splinter Cell games cuz i love stealth action and it's story line. But for A-Net to put in mulitple ending that could happen.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Nov 30, 2005, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Learn to read.

Hey dimwit, maybe you should take your own advice. She contradicted herself about not supporting raising the level cap. Go read my previous post or shut up.

Here let me show it to you again. This is Skulk talking against a level 40 cap:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir skulkcrasher

Sorry Jack.. level 40 is not a good idea. By making level 40 the cap... people have to constantly do missions and fight different enemies to level up to close level 40. People complain about playing game just to reach certain level. I know its not hard to get to level 20 but that take at least 100 hours or more to get there.

And this is Mimi's response to it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

And just how is that a bad thing? The game provides players content and a rewards system for 100 hours of play? What should they do with their time instead? Isn't that the point of a MMORPG - to provide content and rewards for time spent?

Gee, that sure looks like she supports a level raise....but all this time she kept saying that she wasn't and getting mad at people for supposedly not reading, just as you're doing.

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

I know I'm not the only that cares about how my characters look. I'd love to see something where you could change your existing armor to another set for a small amount of gold, that way you can find what works best for you, appearance-wise. And of course a dye-preview feature.

.

how about this for an idea?

have a screen (like the creation screen so you can see from every angle) where you can try on any piece of armor available for your profession and mix and try dye combos on it as well

that way you would know what to get.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Severra Timarre

Grinding for money is not something the casual player does. According to information released by Anet, only 50% of the population has over 10k, with only 75% having over 20k. 10k is attainable by doing the missions through, doing some quests, buying some armor and decent weapons, and having acceptable luck on drops, in other words, a casual gamers experience.

Sorry for only responding to one point but...as I stated before, ANet's #s are completely misleading. It doesn't account for a person's storage, and what it contains, beyond gold. Three black dyes shatters that myth. The truth probably can't be realistically be measured, but judging by the amount of people running around wearing FoW armor - at least 15K armor - I'd say that almost everyone has at least 20-50K of "stuff", whether it's gold, items, armor, runes, etc. But that's just a guess.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

EARTH CALLING MIMI
EARTH CALLING MIMI

HERE IS THE QUOTE FROM ANET SITE SHOWING YOU ARE WRONG OR DELUSIONAL (blah blah blah)

OK, then you can't compare a single player RPG with a COPRG, MMORPG, or any other label you wish to apply to it.

Otherwise, you win?

Loviatar · Nov 30, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

OK, then you can't compare a single player RPG with a COPRG, MMORPG, or any other label you wish to apply to it.

Otherwise, you win?

i gave you a link earlier to what Anet said.

just give me the link to the Anet site where they call GW an MMORPG

you said their site said it please show me where on the site it says what you said it does.

Mimi Miyagi · Nov 30, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

i gave you a link earlier to what Anet said.

just give me the link to the Anet site where they call GW an MMORPG

you said their site said it please show me where on the site it says what you said it does.

And that's germane to what part of this discussion?

Quote:

Guild Wars takes the best elements of today's massively multiplayer online games and combines them with a new mission-based design that eliminates some of the more tedious aspects of those games. You can meet new friends in towns or outposts, form a party, and then go tackle a quest together. Your party always has its own unique copy of the quest map, so camping, kill-stealing, and long lines to complete quests are all things of the past. Within a Guild Wars quest you have unprecedented freedom and power to manipulate the world around you; with the dynamic quest system, your accomplishments have a unique influence on your future.

From: http://www.guildwars.com/gameinfo/default.html

But...whatever. It's not applicable to the discussion about the problems GW has, and what it *may* have in chapter 2. If it will make you feel better, here's a cookie for your troubles.

MSecorsky · Dec 01, 2005, 12:27 AM // 00:27

The only way to raise the level cap without damaging balance is to have increases in level over 20 add no attribute points, health or energy. The only thing you should get is a skill point cookie.

Consider that level increases are logarithmic, that means that for every level there's a greater number of experience points needed to get these cookies. However, we already get skill point cookies for every n experience points above level 20 as it is.

Therefore, raising the level cap steal our cookies.

Bad idea.

Phades · Dec 01, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

not to be facetious (well much) that leaves you with a great middle ground.

as i said halloween shows that while people may be doing other things they are not *gone* in the permanent form of the word for many.

Other areas of the game were rather vacant as the population decided to see what was going on in lions arch durring that period of time. Getting everyone to pile into one area, doesnt show how thriving the community is in all aspects of the game. Merely a rough estimate of people who are still willing to log in.

Roza · Dec 01, 2005, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Wow. This thread was about possible wrong directions that Anet might take with the new chatper, I thought. But it turns into yet another argument about the economy (and silly bickering over small points, of course).

I have my small dislikes about that economy (not being happy to need to farm etc. for some runes and 15K armour nowadays), but is this really the most important aspect of the nex chapter? I think not...